Who would be responsible for enforcing
this under your plan?
>> Well, I think the the key thing is the
backs stop in the end has to be the
police. And I think this is what we've
been looking at for a while now. We've
been looking at all aspects of this. At
the moment, actually, we do have it's
already up to a,000 fine if you're on
the trains or on the tube. You can, it
is there. It's just never enforced. And
I think one of the key things that I
want to see is it actually a enforcement
on our trains and tube network. And I
think actually a little bit of
enforcement, a little bit of enforcement
happening quite quickly could see
societal change. We've actually saw that
when Robert Generick did his video a few
weeks ago uh around fair dodges and the
fact you just saw tube staff and
sometimes BTP just standing aside as
things were happening. Yeah. uh while
while fair dodges are going through
actually a bit of enforcement suddenly
can lead to a behavioral change and it
also means that people will be more
willing to say you know hang on a second
you know when somebody is being
thoughtless you know do you mind not
doing that and I think most of the time
people are are going to be reasonable
about that I think one of the sad things
is though that actually the majority of
journeys taken in our country on public
transport are actually taken by bus and
we don't have the same laws there to
protect bus users as we do to protect
train users and I It's about time we
actually carry those across and that's
one of the big proposals I'm putting in
today in that in the buses bill which is
coming back to parliament later in the
year. We should have some of those
powers that actually the police have at
the moment over trains and over tube
should also be there for the buses
sector
>> but but as you say the fact that it is
there when it comes to tube it doesn't
mean it's being enforced. The reason
it's not being enforced is because as
you well know the police are absolutely
struggling to deal with crimes that are
far more serious than than somebody
playing loud music on the street. So the
reality is there this is not going to be
enforced in the way that you are
suggesting it should be.
>> Well you say that but you know we've
we've seen a doubling in the convictions
for uh people fair dodging over the last
month when Robert Jenn before and after
Robert Jenner's videos. It's quite clear
that actually there is an ability to
step up enforcement and I think a bit of
stepping up enforcement and I think you
you actually raised an important point
about aren't there more serious crimes.
Well, I think if people are fair
dodging, if people are playing music
loudly on the tube, then there's that I
would I would suggest that there is
probably going to be somebody's breaking
the law in one area, there's a
likelihood there probably breaking the
law in other areas as well. If they're
not wanting to be a part of society, I
think you'll see this broken window
through. We saw it, you know, over the
years in our major cities around the
world before. When things start to break
down in one area, they break down uh
more comprehensively. And I actually
think a little bit of enforcement across
the board would actually really help
society as a whole uh to to really uh to
tackle some of these other uh what would
be considered, you know, antisocial
behavior issues which we're facing, you
know, on a daily basis, whether it's on
our public transport system or whether
it's in our streets.
>> How are they going to judge on what is
too loud? I mean, if someone's having a
quiet phone conversation, is that okay?
But if they're shouting, they have
decibel meters.
I think well I think I think everybody
knows that there's there's basically a
reasonleness test on any of these.
>> It's not because what is what is
annoying for one what I what my what I
find annoying in terms of people talking
loudly is very different to what my wife
finds annoying because she's much more
tolerant to noise than me.
>> How do you define it?
>> I mean Ben exactly that's why she's
married to me.
>> No but I think realistically you know
everybody knows the difference right?
Everybody knows the difference and you
know even you know uh even over time
people will have all everybody will have
had a you know conversation on a phone
or something and somebody's looked at
them across a tube carriage or a train
on a train and they've moved through the
vestibule area everybody gets that right
and actually this is all about society
self-p policing a lot of the time but
when there are people who are
consistently uh you know deliberately
out there often you know just uh
enforcing their music on an entire
carriage or enforcing their you know and
everybody knows what that looks like and
I think that's where the reasonleness
test uh comes in and and we have the
same with you know in all sorts of other
uh areas and I think it's not
unreasonable to say that you know as
part of that uh broader push that we've
got to have something on this because it
drives people absolutely bananas and it
ruins their lives on a daily basis.
>> I don't disagree with you at all. is
becoming a real blight for those of us
that regularly use public transport. And
yet, I can't help wondering what's gone
so wrong that we are now basically
asking the police to intervene and
enforce what what even 10 years ago
would have been seen as just basic
courtesy and manners. Mr. I mean, what's
your sense of why this has become such a
problem? Because people to some extent
personal responsibility should be why
people don't play music very loudly in
this way. Well, I think I think you
raised an important point, Ben, and it's
the same with fair dodging. Actually, a
few years ago, it was seen as so
socially unacceptable, people wouldn't
do it. Um, I think some of that has gone
down to the fact that we've just stopped
enforcing some of these laws because the
police have found it perhaps too
difficult or, you know, they've they or
they've been sent on other things, but I
think that ignores a basic tenant, which
is that if people are breaking some of
these laws, and they're going to be
doing other things. And actually, it's a
bit like when you stop somebody uh for
speeding and you find other uh other
things that they're doing wrong or their
cars uninsured or all all that sort of
thing. I think there's a lot of these
knock-on consequences and we need to
have a system in which you know which
allows people to feel that they can uh
say to somebody, you know, what you're
doing is wrong. And I think actually
knowing that the law is there to back
them up on that is quite an important
thing uh as well. And I think
particularly when it comes to uh
particularly when it comes to uh those
bus journeys as well. It's one of the
things and it's an important point
today. I think for a long time we've t
bus t separately to train and to tube
travel and I actually think you know for
a lot of people going on a bus on a
daily basis u you know they will they
will experience some of these issues and
the moment there isn't a legal backup
plan and that's one of the things I also
want to see. Select.